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Kryptogal (Kate, if you like)'s avatar

I actually agree with Arctos on the merits of his argument. I was there and intensely involved in the whole debate over gay marriage and there really never was a coherent argument or much logic on the "pro" side. It was just appeals to emotion and "look we're nice normal people who want to live nice normal lives just like you so don't be mean to us." There was never any serious reckoning with what exactly marriage was for or why it even exists as an institution, and if one can't define the function of the institution one can't analyze whether or not two married males serve that function or not. The slippery slope argument was roundly dismissed as preposterous even though every single thing predicted by the slippery slopists has come to pass and then some. NO ONE other than easily ignored hardcore religionists EVER acknowledged or were allowed to talk about the truly extraordinary levels of gay (male) promiscuity and perversity which will never in any situation be even remotely matched by heterosexual debauchery, and I don't care if you lock a squad of prostitutes on MDMA and crack into a room with a football team on steroids...there will never be a heaterosexual equivalent. And ultimately the whole war was not about any rational basis for which gay couples really had any need to get married, it was purely just their desire for the status of having a social stamp of approval.

That said, while he's correct on the merits, the position of a non religious or atheist person opposing gay marriage on grounds other than religious or personal animus is a lonely one indeed. There weren't many back then and there are virtually none now. He might be the only one. And in a sense, that is admirable and honorable in itself. And I'm certain he would not want an ally from the likes of me, because he likely views someone who marries without hiding their intention to never procreate, when they were otherwise well set up to do so, as just as much of a depraved and corrosive influence on the institution as two dudes marrying (and admittedly, no one should regard or respect a voluntarily childless marriage as being as respectable or valid or important as a procreative one -- it isn't, it's second tier).

More importantly though, this battle has been lost. It's over. He is stubbornly clinging to a belief that it could be revived like a Confederate holdout in 1890. And sticking to one's principles even when you're the only one left and all hope is lost is noble and admirable in a sense. But his "side" has lost definitively. There are way too many people with gay people in their families and networks to walk it back now, it's done. (And fwiw, my perception is that there seem to be MORE gay men in conservative families than liberal ones...likely bc they historically placed more pressure on them to marry and have kids, thus passing down a set of gay genes that otherwise would be much more rare).

I don't really understand why women like gay guys so much, though your point on that is a good one and they're going to let straight men come for their gays. I've personally never had that affinity and maybe it's just bc I enjoy and get along with straight males more than most women, because it's always struck me as a bizarre allyship and I don't think their interests are that aligned. Maybe it's just a matter of them wanting to feel accepted by men without the pressure of having to be sexually alluring to them.

While I think Arctos is correct on the merits, Walt's arguments here are fresh and insightful and well stated, while also portraying his conviviality per usual, just as Arctos acknowledges. Female tears are almost impossible to beat without coming off as a brute, but authentic good cheer, fellowship, and charisma are equally hard to resist. So I find myself once again agreeing with both. No surprise that to a Confederate holdout stubbornly drawing a line, Walt will be viewed as a carpetbagger.

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Rachel Haywire's avatar

I was quite libertine in my youth and still support sexual freedom, but I don’t make it a part of my identity. Otherwise, dead on.

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