Stop being mean to slutty women

It codes as low status and doesn't accomplish anything

I am going to start publicly bullying guys who are excessively mean to promiscuous women or women with a promiscuous past, and will loudly encourage other men on the Right to do the same thing.

One reason for this is that I am a novelty-seeking urbanite with high openness to experience, so these women comprise much of my friend group. I therefore feel a lot of loyalty to this type of person and want people to hear her side of the story.

I also identify with her more than I do other promiscuous men, because I’m too strange and autistic to ever be seen as a “Chad”. Most of my own relationships have a kind of Elon/Grimes vibe that sometimes pisses people off. When low openness chuds see a weirdo who’s successful with beautiful women they tend to feel he doesn’t “deserve” it, and will go after him in the same way they do sluts (but NEVER will with normie “Chads” they don’t perceive as soft targets).

But the main reason for this move is that I mostly support the goal “Trads” have to create a more sexually inhibited and monogamous culture. I just think they are going about it in a stupid, offensive, and counterproductive way.

The low openness and proudly middle class chuds and schoolmarms who constitute the Normie Right never optimize their rhetoric for persuasiveness and practical impact. Instead they mostly try to create space for themselves to bully people and feel superior, which to be fair is very useful for building internal solidarity, aligning norms, accruing status within a subculture, etc. This is what I did with the Alt Right in 2015, so it’s very easy for me to spot.

But I also am friends with a lot of thoughtful and empathetic “Trad” types who don’t do this, have more nuanced thoughts on the matter, are usually a little older, and often themselves come from a more licentious background. They’re also higher status, and don’t need to get their neurochemical cummies from bullying OnlyFans models.

I am addressing the current essay to this type of person, and will do my best to convince them a softer and gentler approach to degeneracy will generate more success

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The first point I want to emphasize is that Trads have more in common with degenerates than they imagine, and that it’s possible to work together on this issue.

I am extremely degenerate in my own behavior, but I seek a more restrained culture because that would make it a lot more fun to be an elite degenerate.

Degeneracy is ruined when you make it accessible to poor and uneducated proles who have less control over their actions and can’t financially absorb the consequences of bad behavior. It fills degenerate spaces with stupid and ugly people who kill the vibe because you have to explain everything to them.

This in turn makes it necessary to sanitize these spaces and restrain predators or hucksters who might exploit these people, and the resulting middle class HR culture of “safe, sane, and consensual” very quickly ruins any transgressive appeal. One can observe this in the decline of 1970s style “swinger” culture into modern polyamory, or the grotesquely explicit contractualism of BDSM that emerges from non-elites being shit at conveying power relations through subtext.

The resulting need for harder transgression creates a lot more perverse and dangerous kinds of degeneracy that aren’t as “open to the public”. And that’s how you get things like NXIVM or Epstein’s Island or the stuff portrayed in movies like Eyes Wide Shut.

The thing is, wealthy and sophisticated elites will always figure out ways to be degenerate, because they are a lot more verbally talented than church ladies and their stolid bean counter husbands. They’ll always think of possibilities for transgression that normies couldn’t even fathom, let alone control.

But when the overall sexual culture is more conservative you can get the same feelings of transgression without people doing anything truly harmful, and you can also create vibrant spaces for elites that serve as a healthy transgressive “release valve” for novelty-seeking people.

A wise ruling class will very deliberately organize society to achieve this end.

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Las Vegas serves as a great example both of how cordoned off degeneracy enables the Tradlife and of how stupid poor people and even middle class normies will completely ruin degeneracy.

Today Vegas is sanitized for mass tourism and manages to be extremely degenerate without being cool or sexy. It’s basically Disneyland with Hooker Pokémon Cards.

But during the Rat Pack era it was “Sin City”—a space for elite and high openness people to work self-destructive urges out of their system in a controlled environment where nothing followed you home.

Hence the famous motto—“What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”.

It was also controlled by the Mafia, so the consequences for fucking up were severe, and this kept away most people who couldn’t handle it. Meanwhile, the people involved in the culture understood the risks and could deal with the negative consequences. Some lives were ruined for sure, but that just added to the transgressive appeal and taught everyone else what lines to draw.

And so you briefly had a glamorous place where rich guys could blow off steam and the rules were optimized to meet their needs. They could wave their dick around in a high stakes poker game with other powerful men, snort cocaine off a young actress’s tit or knock back a few shots of whiskey with Sinatra, and experience catharsis by losing half a million at the blackjack table.

Such behavior horrifies middle class finger-waggers and Dave Ramsey enjoyers who could never afford to do this and pretend it has no appeal to decent people like themselves. But it’s ironically the abundance of elite degenerate spaces like Vegas that enabled the stability and hyper-conservative mindset of the 1950s and early 1960s.

The sort of men who rise to the top of society have an enormous desire for conflict and risk-taking. If you don’t give them a Vegas they will start a war and send your son into the trenches. If they can’t lose their fortune gambling they will take those sort of risks with their business, and soon your husband or father will be out of a job.

Gambling is a vital social technology for this reason. You just can’t make it accessible to the masses. That’s what gets you the Zoomer guy who treats sports betting like a video game and becomes hopelessly addicted. Or even worse, the braless grandma who wastes her entire social security check at a penny slots machine in a quasi-hypnotized state. This kind of danger and transgression isn’t cool or sexy, it’s fucking disgusting and should be banned.

Precisely the same principle applies to sex. Las Vegas used to be a place to have a cocaine-fueled adventure with an overeducated and adventurous girl half your age rebelling against her stuffy affluent family. This was psychologically useful to both of you, and enabled general conformity to more conventional hot dog sexual morality.

As a man you could experience sexual novelty and feel young again, and this made it significantly easier to be nice to your wife with a cottage cheese ass. It made sure you didn’t do something a lot worse, like leave her for your big tiddy secretary. Women hate to hear this (in fact it’s not something you should ever talk about with a woman, unless you’re paying her or she has Asperger’s Syndrome), but elite men find monogamy very taxing and pretty much always cheat.

Meanwhile, as a woman you got to work through psychosexual frustration with your tyrannical father by using your pussy to control someone much richer and more impressive than him in the Cleopatrian manner. It’s easy to stop hating your dad for controlling you with tuition money when your sugar daddy casually drops a few grand on a necklace or takes you out to enjoy some premium yayo on his yacht.

A lot of Lana Del Rey’s earlier work is about this kind of dynamic. I particularly enjoy “Off to the Races” and “National Anthem”, and encourage more normie people to listen if they don’t understand the appeal of what I describe.

You can despise this sort of thing all you want, but you can’t really stop elite men from acting this way. If you don’t create a separate world where rebellious bohemian girls can become their Little Scarlet Harlot, these guys will come after your daughter.

And this is why it’s a very good thing for “loose women” who enjoy this life to exist.

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I consider myself a Traditionalist Degenerate because I want to go back to the Vegas model of degeneracy. Let guys who deserve it be a bit rakish behind closed doors in elite urban spaces without any dumb normies ruining the vibe.

In mainstream and especially suburban life we can let the Church Lady think she is controlling things and everyone will be happy. Most suburban Trads will never even get exposed to the Vegas lifestyle, and can continue to pursue a risk averse hamBurgher life without ever being troubled by the thought of someone having fun.

Meanwhile, marginal “edge case” types who can’t really handle degeneracy (and in today’s world get chewed up by it and become an aimless party girl at best and a hooker / addict at worst) will probably stay away from the things that lead them down those roads, because in my ideal world it’s a lot scarier and less sanitized.

That means if any of your kids are rebellious (or end up significantly more degenerate than you because of genetic drift), my ideal would work strongly to your benefit.

You need to realize that elites have always been slutty and always will. The main problem with the Sexual Revolution is that it’s made sexual license too pedestrian. It’s superficially much safer, but in the long run is vastly (yet subtly) more dangerous.

Poor and even middle class people can’t handle promiscuity. The inequalities it produces when men can’t easily use money / fame / erudition / creative talent to level the playing field with tall and handsome men are too much for most men to handle.

Some 15% of the population will inevitably become incel in any society, and that’s a good eugenic thing. But Tinder has taken this to an unsustainable 30% that will include a lot of perfectly fine guys who just happen to be 5’7 or Norwood 5 or bad at taking selfies, and that will inevitably produce a ferocious hatred in low status men.

You really need to take measures to crack down on this, and that is why I support sexual conservatism for poor people.

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Another reason I hate modern promiscuity is that it’s so unglamorous.

It’s produced a dating landscape full of really bad shit. Optimized Tinder profiles. Hiring a professional to take Hinge pics for you. Men neurotically obsessing over their looks like women and doing weird shit like mewing. Existentially horrifying experiments with “Chadfishing".

Wild Vegas escapades have likewise given way to Netflix and Chill. Simultaneously texting thirteen girls “you up?” and going with your Back of the Fridge Option because your cuter FWB is too busy binging the latest serial killer show. Fingering a Brand Marketing Manager next to a crumpled McDonalds bag.

Groace.

We should ban dating apps for aesthetic reasons alone.

Contra incels, the problem with women isn’t that their standards are too high, it’s that they’re too low. Girls let themselves get fucked on a Floor Mattress next to a pile of laundry in an apartment with no books on the shelf or art on the wall, and then they get all pissy at “men” when the dude doesn’t text them back.

Well what were you expecting when you fucked the guy with no bed frame, Mia¹? If a man doesn’t invest in furniture that makes it inconvenient to move, he’s probably not wanting something serious.

And contra my retrospectively cringe song “Wife the Girl”, I absolutely don’t blame young guys for that. Hell, I myself used to be a Floor Mattress Guy, and for good reason. The modern world is far too complex and sophisticated for most men to make a major commitment prior to becoming fairly established in life. In his twenties a man needs a ton of flexibility to respond with agility to new opportunities and challenges, and a serious girlfriend will complicate that. A lot of men are losers at 30 simply because at 24 they stayed with a lower status girl who held them back. Ambitious men are often kind of incentivized to be fuckboys for this reason.

But the consequences of this are, of course, emotionally devastating to a lot of women, and most of them are inevitably going to get taken advantage of at least once or twice in this landscape.

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Thankfully the more glamorous kind of degeneracy still exists on the fringes of society. It has some interesting overlap with fellow travelers of the edgy online right. People like Dasha and Delicious Tacos come from this world, as do I at this point.

I’ve also discovered that a lot of “Trad” women have a past like this. They just never talk about it because they don’t want incel Zoomers to bully them. But this is basically why so much of Tradwife culture has such a fetishistic vibe.

Being a “Tradwife” is sexy and glamorous among some cohort of Zoomer women because it stole a lot of aesthetics and concepts from the world of sugaring and laundered / sanitized them into a more domestic and “cozy” thing that appeals to low openness Republican types. And that is precisely why someone like Nala can move so seamlessly between OnlyFans and Tradlife. The vibe is incredibly similar.

Hell, a lot of the hardcore Trad stuff you see on Twitter actually reminds me of BDSM.

And I don’t mean the sanitized fetlife shit that appeals to middle class soyboys and fat chicks, I’m talking the darker NXIVM stuff that appeals to actual elite men and which most normies have no idea about (honestly for good reason). The idea of “Marital Debt” is basically Consensual Non-Consent in a sundress. It’s very 50 Shades, the sort of thing elites demand from their Kept Woman behind an ironclad NDA.

The thing is women in these situations don’t resent a CNC dynamic because they’re probably getting a six figure allowance and access to cool opportunities. They’re also high openness people who have a lot of options, as well as the verbal IQ to advocate for themselves even when dealing with Dark Triad CEOs and surgeons. They know what they’re doing.

Hell, when an intensely charismatic girl like Dasha or Lana gets in a situation like this she usually ends up calling the shots. Finding another millionaire is always trivial and she’ll always end up independently wealthy and famous by her mid thirties.

There’s a great song about this dynamic in the musical Evita, which shows the protagonist tactically hypergamizing her way through a series of progressively influential sugar daddies until she acquires enough power and social clout to become the dictator of a medium-sized country:

When you’re providing these kinds of opportunities to a girl, doing whatever you want to her in bed whenever you want is a pretty reasonable ask, especially if she is an ambitious and risk-tolerant person. Besides, at the back of your mind you know if you do anything too fucked up she could probably have you killed in ten years.

But imposing something like “Marital Debt” on your 105 IQ low openness chubby wife when you’re a boring and mediocre guy who makes like $75k / year and lives in the suburbs is exceptionally fucked up.

This is especially the case if you expect her to sit at home with screaming toddlers all day changing shitty diapers. There is nothing glamorous about this and you’re not “providing” at a level that inspires real submission. In practice she will just feel like a human trafficking victim.

And this is why elite women like Radfem Hitler who understand the world in a nuanced way have such contempt for “Trad” guys who support things like Marital Debt. They are basically trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to demand an exceptional and glamorous level of submission from a woman without themselves rising to any kind of exceptional or glamorous standard of masculinity, or giving her anything comparable in return.

And they never go after elite women who are very Faustian / BPD and crave this intensity, because they know they aren’t nearly impressive enough to dominate such women. Instead they expect dumb normie girls who listen to Taylor Swift to go along with this insane shit. They’re basically just incels trying to scam girls into sexual slavery with scripture—just one step above the Rotherham grooming gangs. .

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Anyway, despite weird wrinkles like this, I am strongly in favor of girls like Nala providing a “transitional aesthetic space” between Onlyfans / Sugaring / BDSM on one hand and Tradlife on the other.

It’s the same reason I don’t counter-signal Andrew Tate. Despite being something of a low grade beige pimp, he is inspiring a huge number of Zoomer guys to act more masculine and become rich and powerful, and in a world that so seeks to chop our balls off, this can only be a good thing.

Practically speaking you need to make traditional femininity not just beautiful to young women, but glamorous and sexy. It’s not the worst thing in the world for it to be a little weird and transgressive. You inspire people to change their lifestyle by hitting them in a place of Eros, not Logos or Pathos.

There are hundreds of affluent young women who work as project managers for Deloitte or McKinsey and regularly post content flaunting their glamorous and materialistic lifestyle. These videos are infectious and absolutely pull elite college-aged girls in that direction. They demand a countervailing force that can pull those same girls back to valuing a more domestic orientation.

In practice such a force will and must rely on women who are extremely attractive and charismatic and have a very high verbal IQ. Because of the way our current society is structured, those sorts of women are often going to be pretty slutty, and it’s not uncommon for them to have a background in lighter kinds of sex work.

Thankfully, they will also be smart enough to know how to make the opprobrium mostly go away by publicizing a theatrical and highly erotic ritual where they’re “saved” or “redeemed” (and very frequently are submerged in water). Such a woman is then in a great position to marry an elite man whose position allows her to make TikToks where she spends all day making sourdough or canning peppers or getting a mani / pedi with her doula while some Guatemalan broad cleans her toilet offscreen.

This is the sort of woman who will save traditional femininity. Not the “modest” girl.

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Obviously this will be a controversial view because of the huge class element at play.

On Twitter and elsewhere there is a large contingent of “Trad” women with low earning husbands who are very clearly overworked and bored because hubby doesn’t make enough to pay someone to handle the unpleasant parts of being a housewife, and they have no time for hobbies other than posting on Twitter.

Unlike wealthier housewives, their life is actually kind of hard and unpleasant (particularly if they end up like my cousin and marry a guy with a lower IQ and earning potential). These women don’t have a lot of glamor in their day to day existence because they need to clean up shit and puke and watch Peppa Pig all day.

I truly feel for these women, and they deserve to feel seen and appreciated. I want to make life easier for them by supporting policies that help the lower middle and working classes specifically by lowering the cost of underclass labor. I could write an entire white paper on how to make life better for these ladies, and probably will at some point.

But purely in the realm of propaganda and cultural outreach to young women, the perspective of working class housewives needs to be minimized, if not silenced entirely. Realistically speaking, smart and educated young women will usually marry a guy who makes more than enough to hire a maid and a nanny. These women actually *can* have the glamorous Trad lifestyle, and this must be made palpable to them. It’s always been possible for elites to have their cake and eat it too.

Making traditional femininity less appealing to elite girls by forcing norms of “modesty” on them is incredibly stupid and will just push them into a pantsuit and away from having children. This is a huge problem, since high IQ women not having children is already one of the biggest issues in society (the gap between high and low IQ men is much smaller and IMO not worth thinking about). Doing anything to make this problem worse is monstrously dysgenic and any “modesty” discourse needs to be forcefully suppressed for this reason.

“Modesty” is a mostly bullshit concept anyway that primarily exists as a way for resentful and lower status women to bully beautiful elite women into not trading on their looks and fashion sense for power / money / social capital. It has always been these femcel old maid types pushing the hardest for modesty, along with incels who just want to hurt women.

If you let the modestycels suppress the glamor of a traditional lifestyle you’re just going to ensure your movement stays on the margins of society and permanently optimizes around the emotional needs of fat girls who cry a lot.

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The same thing applies to a woman’s sexual past.

They say you can’t turn a hoe into a housewife, and to be fair that is probably true for the sort of guys who say things like that. But in practice hoes are turned into housewives all the time—just by men who are even bigger hoes.

And here again it becomes an issue of class. The simple fact of the matter is that elite men often prefer slutty women.

A guy who gets laid easily isn’t thinking about minimizing the chance his wife cheats on him or divorces him. He’s thinking about maximizing the chance that she lets him get a side chick or will be down for a threesome. It’s not about raising the floor so much as raising the ceiling.

And once you reach a certain point as a guy there’s just no way any woman can keep up with you. They simply don’t have a comparable sex drive or desire for novelty, and women are much pickier besides, especially when they already have a guy they like. In most upper income marriages if you “opened things up” you would easily sleep with five women in the time she’d need to find one other guy she likes half as much as you.

Hell, sometimes you even want her to have side dudes so she doesn’t get jealous / clingy and text you all the time. This is why incredibly charismatic guys like Patrice O’Neal get drawn into scenes like swinging and frequently are much less territorial over their own women.

But obviously this is an extreme example and most degenerate men still want her to be monogamous after you get together. It’s more about her being open to another girl occasionally or not getting grossed out by weird stuff that makes slutty women appealing to high openness elite men. To guys like Trump or Logan Paul, who probably have a triple digit bodycount, it would feel incredibly retarded to reject a girl in the 25-50 range for being a “slut”. To guys like this she probably is the ideal wife.

And this is why it’s so cringe when low status guys virtue signal against promiscuous women. This kind of thing is inherently coded as incel because all powerful men and beautiful women are aware of this dynamic. You are just outing yourself as sexually and probably economically unsuccessful when you loudly verbalize this opinion and are lowering the prestige of “Trad” views by association.

Meanwhile, when you aggressively castigate slutty women you just negatively polarize them into being more slutty in response, while discouraging some proportion of girls on the margins from ever exploring Tradlife because they’re worried about being stigmatized for their past. People are generally going to do what they want to, and there will always be a space or subculture or scene available to validate their desire.

If you want people to pursue a more traditional life you need to create real desire for it

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Thankfully, it’s not hard at all to do that. I actually suspect it will happen more or less automatically no matter what, because women basically want to be feminine and submissive on a deep primordial level.

I’m already noticing this happen in the dating world. The pantsuit mindset has receded a lot over the past decade. My impression dating Zoomer girls is that they mostly accept gender roles as a fact of life and don’t push back on them like Jezebel-reading Millennial girls used to. This may be selection bias since the domain is inherently restricted to girls willing to date a cheugy and decrepit Millennial, but I don’t think this is the case, as the tendency appears to exist across all social classes and subcultures.

I think they’re just reacting to growing up with a cohort of Zoomer men who had internalized all redpill truths by 13 and came of age watching Andrew Tate videos. Zoomers never really accepted bluepill delusion like us Millennials did as kids. You can’t seriously believe gender denialist blank slate platitudes when you’re growing up in a post-Tinder world.

Ironically, the one thing that’s probably slowing down the proliferation of more avowedly traditional sex norms is Trads being so obnoxious to charismatic high openness girls in their late twenties who are looking to settle down and adopt a slower paced life. If you let those girls into the fold society would reform in a direction you like easily twice as fast.

The real limiting factor has always been a shortage of men who can Lead and Provide in a substantive way that most trads only LARP about. Once an individual man self actualizes he usually finds it very easy to inspire submission in women, and they do so very happily. Women direct change at a societal level in a passive way, but at the individual level they basically follow a man’s lead.

And that is the answer to the Woman Question: it is indelibly a Man Question.

The challenge is, always has been, and always will be to create the right social incentive structure to maximize the number of agentic and capable men

But that is a topic for another time.

1. This is my best attempt at a stereotypical Zoomer girl name